The Thoren Dialogues

No, he doesn't. He got screwed by the machine.

Thoren is saying that the Archons that stripped him of status were incorrect and abused their authority as Archons, which then enabled others of lesser standing to strip him of status...

So, in his belief, if the Harpy finds that the first few "strippings" were illegal, then the rest wouldn't have been able to take place... and that would make sense if a Justicar hadn't stripped his acknowledgement.

So now, if the Harpy does wish to back Thoren (and subsequently sign his own death warrant) then he can go against the Justicar, Several Archons, and other members of the Cam (and Harpies) across the country... it is much more likely, the Harpy will quietly allow everything to happen and hope to hell he doesn't get killed in the crossfire.

Status is a tool of the Elders used to promote their agenda. Muscling people around using and abusing it is part of the OOC Mechanics.

- Brian

ps. I CC'd Alan, the Cam Coord, to see if he agrees with my interpretation. Though he can't reply to the Staff list, I will forward his replies.

I agree with all of that, except the screwed by the machine part.

Princes "push" around Justicars by having political allies they can get help from. They do it through having an established power base in their domain to support them. They do it by being upstanding and supporting the sect and being able to show when a Justicar "might be stretching the limits of their power."

Thoren declared Praxis while the Prince was out of town and then abused that power to bloodhunt the current Prince. Thoren then, instead of making allies, antagonized the Camarilla members on the Yahoogroup, again. They hated him back in January and were ready to send people to turn him into a smoking crater then too. Blood did not give up his praxis, that meant the praxis was contested, and instead of continuing to talk and make it worse for himself, he should have spent the will, circled the wagons, and got ready to deal with it locally before dealing with it on national stage. He didn't.

When challenging a Justicar on an abuse of power, be right and be prepared to be punished for being right. Never assume that an archons are talking without talking to their Justicars or without making the case known to the Justicars or without proving to the Justicars that the archons are capable of acting in public without embarrassing themselves or their boss. Thoren went after the Archons, so a Justicar was used to say "Hey! An Archon dealt with this? Why are you still talking?"

That would have been the point to start talking to allies about status loans to be able to keep talking. Unfortunately, there were very few people left willing to do that, so no allies.

The bloodhunt should never be used in a Praxis. Praxis is already too messy and bloodhunts are only effective when the Prince has the perceived power to carry out that threat, either by personal power, or by support of the Princes domain to be willing to carry out his orders. In a contested praxis with lines in the sand being drawn, that doesn't happen.

Thoren didn't get screwed by the machine, he tried to screw the machine, and now the machine is rolling over him. Extremism never works in the Camarilla. Consensus and group think always keep things at an even level.