Crime in the Camarilla

The thing about the 7th tradition (for those just joining the org, it's "Don't get caught") is that it's a fallacy. It doesn't matter if you get caught or not, you know you're doing something wrong, and therefore it's still a crime.

My list of crimes so far - and this is not a comprehensive list, there will be changes made to the list including additions and clarifications.

Breaching the Traditions.
Breaching the Traditions and using coercion and threats to make it "okay."
Breaching the Traditions and saying it was for the good of the Sect.
Knowing Vicissitude.
Teaching Vicissitude.
Joining a coterie for the purpose of learning Vicissitude.
Flagrant use of Vicissitude in public.
Knowing Obtenebration.
Teaching Obtenebration.
Joining a coterie for the purpose of learning Obtenebration.
Flagrant use of Obtenebration in public.
Removing hearts to ensure loyalty to the coterie above the sect.
Consorting with the Sabbat to exchange disciplines.
Consorting with the Sabbat to exchange information.
Consorting with the Sabbat to exchange phone numbers.
Consorting with the Giovanni to exchange disciplines.
Consorting with the Giovanni to exchange information.
Consorting with the Giovanni to exchange phone numbers.
Consorting with the Followers of Set to allow the Setites to corrupt the sect.
Force embracing and then using that embrace to teach disciplines.
Forced embracing for the purpose of diablerie
Kicking puppies
Drowning rabbits
Supporting stem cell research
Smoking

The Thoren Dialogues

No, he doesn't. He got screwed by the machine.

Thoren is saying that the Archons that stripped him of status were incorrect and abused their authority as Archons, which then enabled others of lesser standing to strip him of status...

So, in his belief, if the Harpy finds that the first few "strippings" were illegal, then the rest wouldn't have been able to take place... and that would make sense if a Justicar hadn't stripped his acknowledgement.

So now, if the Harpy does wish to back Thoren (and subsequently sign his own death warrant) then he can go against the Justicar, Several Archons, and other members of the Cam (and Harpies) across the country... it is much more likely, the Harpy will quietly allow everything to happen and hope to hell he doesn't get killed in the crossfire.

Status is a tool of the Elders used to promote their agenda. Muscling people around using and abusing it is part of the OOC Mechanics.

- Brian

ps. I CC'd Alan, the Cam Coord, to see if he agrees with my interpretation. Though he can't reply to the Staff list, I will forward his replies.

I agree with all of that, except the screwed by the machine part.

Princes "push" around Justicars by having political allies they can get help from. They do it through having an established power base in their domain to support them. They do it by being upstanding and supporting the sect and being able to show when a Justicar "might be stretching the limits of their power."

Thoren declared Praxis while the Prince was out of town and then abused that power to bloodhunt the current Prince. Thoren then, instead of making allies, antagonized the Camarilla members on the Yahoogroup, again. They hated him back in January and were ready to send people to turn him into a smoking crater then too. Blood did not give up his praxis, that meant the praxis was contested, and instead of continuing to talk and make it worse for himself, he should have spent the will, circled the wagons, and got ready to deal with it locally before dealing with it on national stage. He didn't.

When challenging a Justicar on an abuse of power, be right and be prepared to be punished for being right. Never assume that an archons are talking without talking to their Justicars or without making the case known to the Justicars or without proving to the Justicars that the archons are capable of acting in public without embarrassing themselves or their boss. Thoren went after the Archons, so a Justicar was used to say "Hey! An Archon dealt with this? Why are you still talking?"

That would have been the point to start talking to allies about status loans to be able to keep talking. Unfortunately, there were very few people left willing to do that, so no allies.

The bloodhunt should never be used in a Praxis. Praxis is already too messy and bloodhunts are only effective when the Prince has the perceived power to carry out that threat, either by personal power, or by support of the Princes domain to be willing to carry out his orders. In a contested praxis with lines in the sand being drawn, that doesn't happen.

Thoren didn't get screwed by the machine, he tried to screw the machine, and now the machine is rolling over him. Extremism never works in the Camarilla. Consensus and group think always keep things at an even level.

"how is a primogen council selected? What level of lore would I need for that?"

Council of Primogen talks about different ways Primogen are chosen in a domain. In some domains, Princes choose, in some clans decide by vote, in some when people ask who the primogen is, one guy stands where he is, and the rest take a step back leaving him holding the bag. Some domains have a strong Primogen council that choose the Prince and keep him in check, some domains, the Prince just uses his Primogen council to have someone to yell at to keep the clans in his domain in line.

There is no, has never been a, and will never happen, forced set of rules about how Primogen are chosen. Ever. It's called "Roleplay".

In the Accounting, that every kindred in the Camarilla is supposed to have gone through, lasts ten years, and is pretty comprehensive and doesn't condone failure, it should cover that Primogen are typically the eldest of the clan in the area, but sometimes it's not. That typically it's a dynamic personality that's stepped up to be Primogen, has the support of the other clan mates, and sits in a back room with the other primogen and does a lot of talking, but sometimes it's not. Learn who the primogen is, figure out how they became primogen, and if it's not your home domain, don't try and force it to be like your home domain.

Now, if a PC wants to stand up and whine, "but that's not how we do it in my domain!" they should be able to accept that other domains are not their domain, and maybe things might be different, and people may not respond well to that.

Think of it like Monopoly. Some people play that all the money from taxes and fines go in the center and when you land on free parking, you get it. Some people don't.